e-85 cold starts

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harold
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iminhell wrote: I've had this idea that wasted spark wastes fuel and is holding us back N/A. The swap is being done to either prove or disprove my theory.
How's that?
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iminhell wrote:I did the COP for looks, initially. There's no power gain.

BUT, when I switch to the V8 ECU they'll be needed. What's going to happen is I'll get rid of the 'Wasted Spark' ignition and it'll end up being true sequential ignition and fuel.
I've had this idea that wasted spark wastes fuel and is holding us back N/A. The swap is being done to either prove or disprove my theory. It should be a pretty easy swap, just have to move a couple pins and remove a couple. Then it's all tuning stuffs, "PIP counts". I'm got most of the ECU stuff figured out I think and I have a guy online I can bounce ideas off if something goes wrong. Shouldn't be difficult though.


I don't think I'd ever go full solid mount. Might cause some weird resonance and drive the KS crazy. The VF style mounts work very well, I've run them since 03. Window Weld, hockey pucks or any other higher durometer rubber will help. Anything more is just going to cause NVH harshness.
i never thought of window glue. I am trying to find a actual bushing like out of a contorl arm to install in the lower dog bone to help stiffen shifts( stockers last about a month).and allow for.service.

I can see why wasted spark might sluff power. Keep us updatded gots ta go kids still sick
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iminhell
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harold wrote:
iminhell wrote: I've had this idea that wasted spark wastes fuel and is holding us back N/A. The swap is being done to either prove or disprove my theory.
How's that?

An O2 sensor measures a percentage of the percentage of post combustion Oxygen (read a bit more: http://www.ngk.com.au/oxygen-sensors/te ... ensor-work).
During Combustion the bonds holding Oxygen together are broken. O2 is transformed into CO2, CO etc. Oxygen transfers electricity better than when combined with Carbon, an insulator. Thus you ignore anything but Oxygen in the post combustion gas. And that's how an O2 sensor basically works.
We know that with heat (not only combustion) chemical bonds are broken and O2 combines with Carbon.
We know that exhaust gas is hot, at the point when the exhaust valve opens it's still near the temp of ignition (it hasn't had much time to bleed the heat off through the cylinder walls, etc.).

So in a 'Wasted Spark' ignition system 2 spark plugs are fired at the same time, one on compression and the other on exhaust. The reason the one on the ex. is fired is for "emissions purposes". That is by design, it's meant to finish burning any unburnt fuel.

Now think about that last statement, unburnt fuel.
If we didn't burn the fuel during combustion doesn't that mean we might be adding too much fuel in the first place? How would you know how much too much?
Basically you can't answer either question until you remove the wasted system. Then, providing you have enough usable data on both ignition systems to compare, you'll be able to answer them. And that's basically what I want to do.

I look back at when different things took effect during the progression of fuel injection and at different points you can find that engine efficiency rises, yet fuel usage/economy/MPG remains near constant. Something doesn't add up there. An engine that is more efficient should almost always use less fuel. That's not the case though. Which means something is IMO falsely, creating more need for fuel. The ignition is a easy choice and for the most part easy to test.
Bad part is you won't see the MFG.'s alter current ignition systems due to legal reasons. How the ignition operates is part of the Federal Emissions Laws (IIRC) and to change those laws requires some serious research and SAE advisers to urge the law be changed. That won't happen.

May just be all in my tinfoil hat though. But I'm willing to test my theory and will share any of my findings. If I'm wrong, so be it. And that means I move on to something else to test theory on.
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Well of course yer gonna have unburnt fuel. Stoich is for the cat only. 14.7-1 is way to rich to fully burn. If you burn all the fuel youll end up with NOX and kill all da fuggin polarguins!!!!! WTF bro!!!!!! You mad? :lol: wasted spark or not your losing such a little amount with the wasted spark that its not gonna make a noticable differance. Your hydro carbons and nox will go way up and yor cat will hate you and yer zaust will stink. With your high compression and rich corn fuel you may run into saturation issues, wasted spark may help you.....just sayin. 8)
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harold
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iminhell wrote:
harold wrote:
iminhell wrote: I've had this idea that wasted spark wastes fuel and is holding us back N/A. The swap is being done to either prove or disprove my theory.
How's that?
May just be all in my tinfoil hat though. But I'm willing to test my theory and will share any of my findings. If I'm wrong, so be it. And that means I move on to something else to test theory on.
That is seriously tinfoil hat. The purpose of wasted spark ignition is simplicity and low cost, not emissions control. Wasted spark is easier to implement than sequential COP or CNP because you don't need a cam phase sensor and the computer doesn't need as much processing power. If you've got too much fuel, you've got too much fuel and you tune that by taking out fuel, not adding another spark. Why would a manufacturer add fuel specifically to justify the use of wasted spark?

Engines are more efficient, but they're, in large part, offsetting that by powering larger cars. Most of the time they're also using the efficiency gains to make more power out of the same displacement, not by making the same amount of power from a smaller displacement. More power means more fuel and air needed.

You're also ignoring the fact that there are plenty of cars available with COP or CNP that fire the coils sequentially and, therefore, without wasted spark. If you want to go COP, that's fine, but you don't need a crackpot theory to justify it.

Also, carbon is a conductor, not an insulator.
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focinite
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I think what hell is trying to say is that....... im not sure what but i had a thought and its gone. In my head there is no wasted spark as the egine fires two cylinders at time. Or if it were firing one at a time thn ......its not so there. I do think it goes 1&3 then 2&4 or it might be 1&4 then 2$3. Ither way its making ue of the sister spark. It dont matter if the guy wants to figure shiz out let him. Even though he is sqwandering his own time :lol: in the end it dont matter cus from a dead launch a front wheel drive car unloads the traction tires and anything beyond two hunderd at the wheels is shouting," hay look!, my wienner aint small!". So wasted spark or seqweenchul ass injected it dont matter cus youll hit the, " physics wont let me" wall and then youll buy a mustang or a cah-merrah or a ess- teh- eye. So have fun waste money! If its wat makes ya happy then do it. Im out fer i start gettin all negitive up in this bidge! :?... fuggin mustangs! .........power shift!!!!!!!!............ not now cheif!, im in the zone
Fuggin mustangs..........NOSsssssss! :lol:
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harold
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focinite wrote:I think what hell is trying to say is that... I'm not sure what but i had a thought and its gone. In my head there is no wasted spark as the engine fires two cylinders at time. Or if it were firing one at a time then... it's not so there. I do think it goes 1&3 then 2&4 or it might be 1&4 then 2&3. Either way its making use of the sister spark. It doesn't matter if the guy wants to figure shit out, let him. Even though he is squandering his own time :lol: in the end it doesn't matter because from a dead launch a front wheel drive car unloads the traction tires and anything beyond two hundred at the wheels is shouting, "hey look! My wiener isn't small!" So wasted spark or sequential ass ignition it doesn't matter because you'll hit the, " physics wont let me" wall and then you'll buy a Mustang, Camaro or a STI. So have fun wasting money! If its what makes you happy then do it. I'm out before i start getting all negative up in this bitch! :? Fucking Mustangs! Power shift!!!!!!!! Not now chief, I'm in the zone!
Fucking mustangs... NOS! :lol:
I think you missed the part where I said I'm not saying he shouldn't do it. I'm just saying his theory makes no sense. If I told him not to do something, I'd have to stop putting a 5.0 in my 944 to keep from being a hypocrite. I'm doing it because I want to, not because I'm looking for the approval of some asshole I've never met. At the same time, I'm not going to say I'm putting the 5.0 in my 944 because the manufacturers didn't put that combo together to prevent me from shitting rainbows.

Wasted spark wastes a spark by firing a cylinder without a combustible mixture in it. That's it. They don't dump in fuel just so that spark has something to do. If they were to dump in enough fuel for that spark to do something, the mixture would be so rich the first spark wouldn't be able to light it. Wasted spark is simpler to control because you don't need to know which stroke each cylinder is on, just when each cylinder is at TDC.

With individual coils and sequential spark you get more dwell time for each coil which allows for a hotter spark at high RPM than with wasted spark, but it takes another sensor, more software and an output to each coil from the computer.
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focinite
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Sweet.... thats great ans awsome in all, but I wanna hear more about the windsor poreshe 8) plus shittin a rainbow would blow my fuckin mind. I would give you a months pay check to see you shit a rainbow :lol: thank you you said what i was thinking. Its like they fire all four at once. Iminhell is a smart feller but some times i think hes too smart. He seems like a good guy. I was never meaning to say yay or nay about. I feel that cam profiles and timing will give more results than monkeying with the spark delivery. But you never know he might be onto something that i or anybody have overlooked or never bothered looking at fully. 8) oh and its CAH-MER-AH thats merrikan fer camaro. Dont be changin ma phonics! :lol: like ma cahmarah is shootin bald eagles and roman candles out ma flooh mahsterrs wen i revs the piss ot it.!!.!.!! Shoot dang! :lol: t-tops bitch! Mother lovin t-tops!!!!! Hah haaaaaaaaahahahahahaha :lol: i gotta go to sleep.
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